To be fair, tell the fp readers how many different churches have you been a member of? How many have you worshipped in? How many times have you worshipped in a church in the last year? the last five years?
Doesn't the nature of the question imply the truth of Christianity? If Christianity isn't true, then what is shittiness?
A basic tenant of Christianity is the sinfulness (shittiness) of man and the fact that God freely justifies (calls righteous/perfect) the wicked due to the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus. If man is in the condition that God declares him to be, then this question is easily answered.
If man is in the condition that God says he is ('dead in sins and transgressions', 'at enmity', 'enemies', etc.), then I expect those that don't love Him to speak ill of Him and His people. How do we speak about those we hate? This doesn't negate the fact that God's people (or at least those that call themselves God's people) do terrible things, but the Taliban isn't singing America's praise and vica verse. And they delight in every error of their enemy.
I'm slightly confused as to the question maybe. Is the asker posing that all church is shitty or that the one he/she attends is shitty and how so?
Also, alot of people complain about elements of their church being subpar, but never find time out of their "regular work week life" to try and implement change....we all do it.."why cant someone else step up and make that better..." whine.....
"Why does recognizing that human beings have darkness in their hearts (as well as light, by the way) prove that Christianity is true?
Because it begs a definition of 'good', 'light', 'darkness', and all the other attributes you want to attribute to actions, behavior and men's hearts, which I don't believe you can justify, especially from an atheistic or agnostic 'natural law' basis. Yes, I agree that there is 'natural law', albeit defined differently than you, but I believe I have a reason for this belief. I would say that Christianity is true, because without it there is no standard for the aforementioned attributes, 'natural law' (whatever that may actually be), or justification for our beliefs.
I agree that this does not end the discussion, but merely kicks it off.
"Just because a non-Christian recognizes the evil that men can do does not mean that Christianity is proven true. What makes you say so?"
I believe you have no basis for calling something 'evil'.
"Christianity does not have the market on truth cornered. It is this kind of arrogance (and no, I'm not personally calling you arrogant, KDNY) that is so off-putting."
I'm not arguing my point per se, but merely setting forth my worldview. IF Christianity is True, then it is True that the Triune God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob created the heavens and the earth, and there is not a single fact in the universe that has not been made by Him. If this is the case, then, yes, Christianity, as centering upon the person and work of Jesus Christ, has 'the market on truth cornered', because God is the creator of that truth. Now, this doesn't negate the fact that you know things and understand the world, because I believe my worldview is true and that you bear the image of God, albeit marred. This, however, is not arrogant, but rather leads to humility. To recognize that man is a created being and all of his knowledge is derived is rather humbling. It is arrogant to assert that the mind of man has ordered all the facts of the universe and autonomously declares, "I know good from evil. I have taken this universe, and ordered it by my finite made and have made things comprehensible." He essentially replaces the God of Scriptures with his own mind, and he is suddenly caught in a dilemma, but more on that at a later time.
"There are other philosophies and ideologies that one can subscribe to and talk about things like right, wrong, good, bad, wonderfulness, and shittiness."
Yes, they can, because they live in God's world, but I don't believe they can justify these beliefs if their worldview was true.
"It is only that you cannot see that others can stake claim to beauty and truth that keeps you from recognizing the validity and completeness of other ways of thinking."
No, I can see and understand these things, but that doesn't make their way of thinking 'valid' or 'complete'. Man lives in God's world and he was created to know, so I expect each man to have some truth in him, even the most depraved.
"Shittiness can and indeed does exist outside of your worldview. Natural law makes that quite clear."
I don't believe it can be accounted for outside of the Triune God. Whose natural law? Where has nature spoken? What is "nature"? Who has interpreted it? Where is this natural law? Can I see it? Can I touch it? Why does it seem to be ever so changing in our society? Just as Nietzsche’s Mad Man declared that God is dead, Darwin came along and declared natural law dead.
So, I stand by my original comment, that this discussion only makes sense in a Christian worldview. Why is Church shitty? Why is the world shitty? Because man has rebelled against his Creator, Jesus Christ. If the world was not created good, then there is no standard by which to judge its 'shittiness'. It merely is.
The church, the Bride of Christ, is beautiful, holy, truthful, gracious, passionate, humble, etc.
The church, defined Biblically, is not a collection of people on the church role or the people who meet in this or that building or belong to this organization, the CHURCH are people who are regenerated, new creations 2 Corinthians 5:17, with new hearts,and new spirits. Ez. 36:26
Just like Paul said, "not all Israel is Israel". Not all the church is the (real) church. Sometimes "the church" gets a bad rap because in the last few generations leaders, have shown no discernment in preaching the Biblical gospel, instead desiring to add numbers as quickly as possible. This married with a tolerant "LOVE" that is happy to leave people in sin rather that help them out of it has been detremental.
The church you see is ugly because it is so sinful. Yes we are all sinners, but I believe (just read 1 John) that the Bible teaches that the church will be different. The moder church is sinful in part because it is unsaved and sinful because it is unchallenged and content with the lowest common denominator of morality. Not pressing on to be more and more like Christ.
Have a great day. Check out this site. www.desiringgod.org
6 comments:
people make church shitty...not God.
To be fair, tell the fp readers how many different churches have you been a member of? How many have you worshipped in? How many times have you worshipped in a church in the last year? the last five years?
Doesn't the nature of the question imply the truth of Christianity? If Christianity isn't true, then what is shittiness?
A basic tenant of Christianity is the sinfulness (shittiness) of man and the fact that God freely justifies (calls righteous/perfect) the wicked due to the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus. If man is in the condition that God declares him to be, then this question is easily answered.
If man is in the condition that God says he is ('dead in sins and transgressions', 'at enmity', 'enemies', etc.), then I expect those that don't love Him to speak ill of Him and His people. How do we speak about those we hate? This doesn't negate the fact that God's people (or at least those that call themselves God's people) do terrible things, but the Taliban isn't singing America's praise and vica verse. And they delight in every error of their enemy.
I'm slightly confused as to the question maybe. Is the asker posing that all church is shitty or that the one he/she attends is shitty and how so?
Also, alot of people complain about elements of their church being subpar, but never find time out of their "regular work week life" to try and implement change....we all do it.."why cant someone else step up and make that better..." whine.....
"Why does recognizing that human beings have darkness in their hearts (as well as light, by the way) prove that Christianity is true?
Because it begs a definition of 'good', 'light', 'darkness', and all the other attributes you want to attribute to actions, behavior and men's hearts, which I don't believe you can justify, especially from an atheistic or agnostic 'natural law' basis. Yes, I agree that there is 'natural law', albeit defined differently than you, but I believe I have a reason for this belief. I would say that Christianity is true, because without it there is no standard for the aforementioned attributes, 'natural law' (whatever that may actually be), or justification for our beliefs.
I agree that this does not end the discussion, but merely kicks it off.
"Just because a non-Christian recognizes the evil that men can do does not mean that Christianity is proven true. What makes you say so?"
I believe you have no basis for calling something 'evil'.
"Christianity does not have the market on truth cornered. It is this kind of arrogance (and no, I'm not personally calling you arrogant, KDNY) that is so off-putting."
I'm not arguing my point per se, but merely setting forth my worldview. IF Christianity is True, then it is True that the Triune God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob created the heavens and the earth, and there is not a single fact in the universe that has not been made by Him. If this is the case, then, yes, Christianity, as centering upon the person and work of Jesus Christ, has 'the market on truth cornered', because God is the creator of that truth. Now, this doesn't negate the fact that you know things and understand the world, because I believe my worldview is true and that you bear the image of God, albeit marred. This, however, is not arrogant, but rather leads to humility. To recognize that man is a created being and all of his knowledge is derived is rather humbling. It is arrogant to assert that the mind of man has ordered all the facts of the universe and autonomously declares, "I know good from evil. I have taken this universe, and ordered it by my finite made and have made things comprehensible." He essentially replaces the God of Scriptures with his own mind, and he is suddenly caught in a dilemma, but more on that at a later time.
"There are other philosophies and ideologies that one can subscribe to and talk about things like right, wrong, good, bad, wonderfulness, and shittiness."
Yes, they can, because they live in God's world, but I don't believe they can justify these beliefs if their worldview was true.
"It is only that you cannot see that others can stake claim to beauty and truth that keeps you from recognizing the validity and completeness of other ways of thinking."
No, I can see and understand these things, but that doesn't make their way of thinking 'valid' or 'complete'. Man lives in God's world and he was created to know, so I expect each man to have some truth in him, even the most depraved.
"Shittiness can and indeed does exist outside of your worldview. Natural law makes that quite clear."
I don't believe it can be accounted for outside of the Triune God. Whose natural law? Where has nature spoken? What is "nature"? Who has interpreted it? Where is this natural law? Can I see it? Can I touch it? Why does it seem to be ever so changing in our society? Just as Nietzsche’s Mad Man declared that God is dead, Darwin came along and declared natural law dead.
So, I stand by my original comment, that this discussion only makes sense in a Christian worldview. Why is Church shitty? Why is the world shitty? Because man has rebelled against his Creator, Jesus Christ. If the world was not created good, then there is no standard by which to judge its 'shittiness'. It merely is.
The church, the Bride of Christ, is beautiful, holy, truthful, gracious, passionate, humble, etc.
The church, defined Biblically, is not a collection of people on the church role or the people who meet in this or that building or belong to this organization, the CHURCH are people who are regenerated, new creations 2 Corinthians 5:17, with new hearts,and new spirits. Ez. 36:26
Just like Paul said, "not all Israel is Israel". Not all the church is the (real) church. Sometimes "the church" gets a bad rap because in the last few generations leaders, have shown no discernment in preaching the Biblical gospel, instead desiring to add numbers as quickly as possible. This married with a tolerant "LOVE" that is happy to leave people in sin rather that help them out of it has been detremental.
The church you see is ugly because it is so sinful. Yes we are all sinners, but I believe (just read 1 John) that the Bible teaches that the church will be different. The moder church is sinful in part because it is unsaved and sinful because it is unchallenged and content with the lowest common denominator of morality. Not pressing on to be more and more like Christ.
Have a great day.
Check out this site.
www.desiringgod.org
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